AYESHA RASCOE, HOST:
In 1988, a protest took over a Washington, D.C., college campus.
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JERRY COVELL: [inaudible] .
RASCOE: That's Jerry Covell signing to the crowd at Gallaudet University, telling them, I am as insulted as you all. The problem - the choice to leave the University for the Deaf and Hard of Hearing was not herself deaf or hard of hearing. The story of how Covell and three other students led a weeklong protest that changed the leadership of Gallaudet and American culture is told in a new documentary on Apple TV+, "Deaf President Now! " It's co-directed by Davis Guggenheim and my next guest, Nyle DiMarco. And, yes, some of you "Next Top Model" fans know who he is. Nyle DiMarco, welcome to the program.
NYLE DIMARCO: Thank you so much for having me. It's great to be here.
RASCOE: Grey Van Pelt is also here as your interpreter. Welcome.
GREY VAN PELT: Thank you.
RASCOE: So Nyle, you went to Gallaudet, much later than these protests. What did you learn about them when you were a student?
DIMARCO: Yeah. It's funny, actually. I learned about this protest much earlier than when I went to Gallaudet, and that's because I'm very fortunate to come from a deaf family. So I'm actually the fourth generation, and this is a story that's very much passed down generation to generation within our community, sort of hand to hand. I remember when I was 7, my mom actually sat us down and recounted the story of those seven days at Gallaudet, and I couldn't believe it. You know, it's wild to think that there was ever a deaf university that didn't have a deaf president, was entirely run by hearing folks, but times really had changed eight years later.
RASCOE: The protests were about a specific choice for the university's new president. They were also about the way deaf people were treated. What did the students at the time understand better than Gallaudet's board of trustees?
DIMARCO: During the candidacy process, there were actually two deaf candidates against one hearing. The community really felt that we were in the perfect time. You know, I mean, truly, two to one - what are the odds? And they ended up choosing a - the hearing candidate. Honestly, it wasn't just because they were wrong in that choice, but I think what we saw in the protest was years and years and years of rage built up. You know, it stems from years of oppression and discrimination. And a lot of people didn't think that a deaf person could interact with Congress and find the funding. You know, Gallaudet is such a unique place. It's such a special place for so many deaf people around the world, and we were ready to lead. It was really shocking to see that the one university that really was set up to hire a deaf person wouldn't when hearing people had, you know, the option to work essentially anywhere else.
RASCOE: The chair of the university's board of trustees was reported to have said to the students, deaf people are not ready to function in a hearing world. Now, she denied saying that.
DIMARCO: Right.
RASCOE: But the students were sure she did say it. Talk to me about that sentiment because you see it really lights a fire at that moment.
DIMARCO: What Spilman said when she said, deaf people aren't ready to function in the hearing world, really was so much more than just that phrase. Even if Spilman didn't say it, so much more of her behavior really shows that she believed that deaf people weren't ready to lead. And we now have over 40 hours of archive that we've been able to go through and digitize, and we sifted through every last pixel to try to find a clip of that. And instead, what we found was her general attitude, her tone and tenor in working with the deaf community, was more damning than the actual clip itself.
RASCOE: And so when you say Spilman, you're talking about Jane Bassett Spilman, the chair of the university's board of trustees. This protest really represented a transition in the way deaf students had been educated before the goal was to fit into the hearing world. But that goal was changing in 1988. Can you explain that?
DIMARCO: It certainly was changing. It started really in the 1960s when the four student leaders were born. At the time, they had linguistics researchers whose entire focus was on grammar and structure and the rules of ASL. You know, so the - by the time I came around, language was, you know, very much in a different light, I should say. But prior to my education, ASL was really considered sort of a series of gestures. And I think what you see throughout this protest is that we were taking back our power and our pride.
RASCOE: Well, and the movie focuses on four of the leaders of the protests, and there initially seems to be a difference in opinion over whether Greg Hlibok is the right person for the job. And he's the gentle, newly elected student body president, and there were questions about whether he was able to be bold enough to lead this movement.
DIMARCO: Right. I think it's really interesting because Greg had just been appointed student body government president. And prior to that, it would have made sense for the president to be really leading, but being so new to the position, I think, changed the dynamics. And if you consider how much work Jerry had been doing in previous months, readying the community and firing them up, I think he looked at that as sort of a slight.
RASCOE: 'Cause Jerry Covell - he was kind of more militant, and he had been organizing as well, but he wasn't tapped to be the face of the movement.
DIMARCO: Right. I think that Greg was really, honestly, a fantastic choice. Jerry's fieryness could have lit some bridges on fire. The two of them really were able to strike the perfect balance overall. But it is quite interesting how they were able to move past that quite quickly, and you don't see that a lot with protests today. Our difference of opinions can be so quickly divisive, and that can really destroy momentum.
RASCOE: You know, I went to Howard, an historically Black college and university, also known for some very intense protests that also resulted in big changes in the school. And then when you come decades later, it's almost like this pressure. Like, can you live up to what your predecessors did? - 'cause they seem so powerful. They did amazing things. Is there, like, a pressure that students feel to live up to that?
DIMARCO: I certainly think so. So much of us really look back at this and think the unity that they built in the span of a week is amazing because in your 20s, you're at college and you're looking at this amazing story. And oftentimes people say, you know, if it were to happen today or if you had been there, do you think you'd be a leader? And (laughter) I always say, no, I would have been probably not taking up the banner on the front line. And how they were able to stand firm in their demands is just - it's something to admire, I think.
It's interesting for me, too, because in the process of making this film, you know, it felt like an act of protest in and of itself. It felt like resistance because our story really is being erased from history. With all of the civil rights movements that are taught, this is one that has never really seen focus and certainly is starting to be erased. But it's a really important movement because this actually gave rise to the passage of the ADA just two short years later.
RASCOE: And that's the passage of the Americans with Disabilities Act, right?
DIMARCO: Yeah. That legislation is so important because it protects over 25% of Americans. If you look at how legislation like that gets passed, it's because of radical acts of resistance like Deaf President Now.
RASCOE: That's Nyle DiMarco. He's the co-director of the new documentary "Deaf President Now!" on Apple TV+. Thank you so much for talking with us.
DIMARCO: Oh, my pleasure. Thank you so much for having us.
RASCOE: And thanks, Grey Van Pelt, for interpreting.
VAN PELT: My pleasure.
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